Igor Kuley, Belsat: Ambassador Brzezinski, thank you for this opportunity to sit here and talk to you today. I know you are not an ambassador to Belarus. You are ambassador to Poland, but you still decided that you can talk to us about Belarus. And I think our viewers appreciate that.
Ambassador Brzezinski: Thank you, Igor, for having me today. I think the most important thing regarding the topic of our conversation today, the second anniversary of the fraudulent elections in Belarus in 2020, is that I am a US Ambassador and the US government as a whole stands with the freedom fighters and the democracy activists of Belarus. We are proud of them. We are proud of their fight. We recognize their sacrifice, the suffering they endure, and their families. And I am very aware that the journalist Iryna Slaunikava is in prison in Belarus and suffering because of her trade in free media. We stand in solidarity with her and call for her immediate release.
Igor Kuley, Belsat: Thank you for mentioning our former colleague. It is very important to us that diplomats and politicians from other countries remember what is happening in Belarus, because two years have passed since the elections. And since the beginning of the war in Ukraine, we think that Belarus is sometimes overshadowed by what’s going on in Ukraine now. Is that true? or is Belarus still an important issue for western democracies?
Ambassador Brzezinski: Well, freedom and democracy in Belarus is an absolute must, in America for the US government and for democracies around the world. We’ll see what happens. We saw what happened two years ago with the election that wasn’t free and fair. We saw what happened two years ago, that Lukashenko took power not on the basis of a free and fair election by his people. And we see the human rights violations that are taking place today. We will not forget this. It’s actually hugely important and dependent on the crisis that the US government and Poland are facing in that region. There is a fundamental challenge to democracy and freedom in Eastern Europe, based on what we see in Ukraine but also based on what we see in Belarus. And that’s why this anniversary is important. And that’s why we stand with the democracy activists who work for democracy in Belarus.
Igor Kuley, Belsat: You mentioned that our colleague Iryna Slaunikava was sentenced to five years in prison two days ago. And last month, our other colleague, Katsyaryna Andreyeva, was sentenced to eight years in prison for the second time. What else can the United States and the European Union do to bring forward the day of their release so that they can be released…
Ambassador Brzezinski: Immediately. We will immediately seek their release. And we are pursuing a broad, multi-faceted and multi-dimensional approach to promoting freedom and democracy in Belarus. Together with our special friends, the Poles, we call for this change in Belarus. It is not lost on us what is happening there, that you have an authoritarian leader who is in power on the basis of unfree and unfair elections and who is using prison sentences and government machinations to intimidate those who participate in free elections and the fair media . And we will continue to stand by them to support activism in a variety of ways to minimize the reach and practices of authoritarian leaders and maximize the potential of democracy activists and those trying to advertise in free and fair media. We’re even doing that through the program and through the platform that you and I are speaking on right now. And this is Belsat.
Igor Kuley, Belsat: What do you think? In these two years after the 2020 elections, is the situation with democracy and human rights and values getting worse and worse? or did Lukashenko manage to stabilize the situation in the country? can we use that word “stability”?
Ambassador Brzezinski: Sure, well, I’m not going to get into that: when it’s better, when it’s worse – when you have a leader who is in power on the basis of unfree and unfair elections and using the government’s machinations to intimidate those who participate in what is legitimate in any democracy around the world – and that is free and fair media. This is exactly what is happening in Belarus and we will continue to work to empower those who would try to stand up for the rights of the people of Belarus and for freedom and, frankly, humanity in this country. The people of Belarus deserve better. You have seen how democracy and freedom can thrive immediately in the West. I think what happened in the first three decades of the post-communist era in Central Eastern Europe provides important models in many ways, important examples of what works and what doesn’t work, and we hope the same for the people of Belarus. They deserve better and I hope they get better as soon as possible.
Igor Kuley, Belsat: The United States did not recognize Alexander Lukashenko as President, and they did not recognize the 2020 elections. But has anything changed since that time? I mean who is Alexander Lukashanko for USA today?
Ambassador Brzezinski: Well, Alexander Lukashenko is someone who, quite frankly, over the last 30 years has shifted his positions in as many different directions as possible in terms of his orientation to the West, in terms of his orientation to Russia, by one fundamentally arrogant and egocentric goal of keeping themselves in power. This is him for us. And the people of Belarus deserve better.
Igor Kuley, Belsat: And if I may ask about Alexander Lukashenka’s authorities, the government officials who work for him and the diplomatic staff, do you recognize them? I mean, do you separate her from Alexander Lukashenko?
Ambassador Brzezinski: I understand your question. Alexander Lukashenko does not do this alone. He has people working with him, collaborators who are part of this ill-fated endeavor that he has undertaken. This is nothing we miss, we have a fairly detailed scientific understanding of what it took to bring Aleksandr Lukashenko to power in Belarus and who was involved and who was not. We didn’t miss it at all. At the same time, we stand by those who work for democracy, freedom and human rights in Belarus. We do this responsibly. We do this with the aim of not making things worse, but especially for them, but also for all the people of Belarus who earn much more than what they have today.
Igor Kuley, Belsat: United States representatives, including US Ambassador to the OSCE Carpenter, recognized Lukashenka as an ally of Russia in this attack on Ukraine. Many other US officials repeat this statement that Alexander Lukashenko is also to blame for this war because he is helping Russia to attack Ukraine. But then why are the consequences for these two regimes – Russian and Belarusian – not the same in terms of sanctions? because the sanctions against Russia are stricter than those against Lukashenko.
Ambassador Brzezinski: Sure. Well, sanctions are aimed at different companies in this part of the world for different reasons. Obviously, Putin is not acting alone on the crisis in Ukraine and has turned humanity upside down in Eastern Europe by forcing millions upon millions of Eastern Europeans from their homes. What we see today, Igor, are images that you would see from WWII footage, in Ukraine, people being put on buses and driven off to Russia, bombs being dropped on homes, schools and medical facilities. We understand that Putin is not acting alone. And we are well prepared to first support the people of Ukraine in their fight against Russia and then also to protect every square inch of NATO territory where we are in Poland right now. So I’ll leave it at how we distinguish who gets sanctioned and how, but there are many actors in this part of the world that we’re keeping tabs on for their pernicious cruel activities, conducting in Ukraine, in Russia and in Belarus.
Igor Kuley, Belsat: Let me rephrase my question: do you think the sanctions imposed on the Russian regime are enough?
Ambassador Brzezinski: Well, sanctions take a while to have an effect. We are seeing the slow but increasing pressures in this region: economic, legal, in terms of the ability to travel, in terms of people’s ability to engage in the West, as these sanctions take effect. Hundreds and hundreds of companies in this part of the world are now sanctioned. This with the view that they may not have the impact today that we would like once we impose these sanctions, but they will have their impact. And it has not escaped the authorities in the West who were sanctioned and how. We live in a time, Igor, when it’s forensically easier than ever to understand who did what, who traveled where, and that should be relevant to the individuals and organizations being sanctioned.
Igor Kuley, Belsat: The Belarusian democratic movement, including Sviatlana Tsikhanouskaya and Pavel Latushka believe that Belarus is now occupied. You can even hear experts saying that we are under double occupation, first by the (quote/unquoted) regime of Alexander Lukashenka, and the other by the friendly Russian side. Would you agree with his definition that Belarus is occupied?
Ambassador Brzezinski: I think trying to define whether Belarus is occupied or not misses the point. The most important point is that activists and journalists and those fighting for democracy and freedom in Belarus have been imprisoned and have been treated appallingly for several years now. These, then, are acts under the authority and claim of the State which cannot be overlooked. So what we are doing in the West is finding out who committed what and preparing to take steps to reach out to those who are trying to help them and engage those who are being brutalized to to improve the situation. We imposed sanctions to send the message that you will not be part of the modern world, you will not be part of the West if you engage in behavior more reminiscent of World War II.
Igor Kuley, Belsat: Do leaders like Lukashenko and Putin really care?
Ambassador Brzezinski: I think over time they will take care of it because they are not the only ones being sanctioned. It is those who have helped them and facilitated and accelerated them who are also being sanctioned. And over time, they will have to face those who are able to get involved and travel around the world doing business around the world to participate in activities that everyone participates in who lives in the modern world, they are denied that. Is this the kind of life they want? Is that success? Did they choose to support these people in power who were brought there by unfree and unfair elections? I do not think so. I don’t think this is the world they were hoping for. That’s the kind of thing sanctions are supposed to convey and provide context to approve them.
Igor Kuley, Belsat: One of the main ideas of a significant part of Russian society is the restoration of the Soviet Union. They want the Soviet Union back. They want to live in that past, when the Russians were right in the middle. They were the main part of this country, and Belarus, and Ukraine, and Kazakhstan, and all were united with Russia. And they have this Iron Curtain. They want to be the Soviet Union again.
Ambassador Brzezinski: We are talking about two leaders, Putin and Lukashenko, who are literally returning to the former Soviet Union on a professional basis. One was a KGB agent, the son of a KGB agent, and the other was a member of the Soviet bureaucratic apparatus. And it’s now 2022, three decades since the collapse of the Soviet bloc, how’s that progress? How is that even modern? The generational change is meant to bring new ideas, new approaches to what constitutes people (…) in our time and you have two countries that are literally run by people who are throwbacks to the old Soviet Union and the worst parts of the Union . I think that’s cruel. And it’s worth thinking about how unfortunate that is. Anyone who speaks or acts to promote the former Eastern Bloc must ask those around them: What are they doing? How is that something people want? I don’t see people calling for the restoration of the old Soviet bloc. I’ve never seen this quote and that’s aimed at “leader” unquote. This is a terribly unfortunate situation. And again, the people of Belarus and Russia deserve better.
Igor Kuley, Belsat: Let’s stop talking about Putin and Lukashenka and their past. Let’s talk about 2022. Since 2020, Belarusian democratic forces have been discussing the creation of a government-in-exile – a Belarusian democratic government-in-exile. If it were to be created, would the United States recognize it?
Ambassador Brzezinski: What we are doing, Igor, is supporting as many different mechanisms and platforms as possible to advance democratic governance, the rule of law and human rights in Belarus. I don’t want to go into detail about what we support and what we don’t. But what I just said is clearly consistent with US government activities in Belarus for a number of years. We fully intend to support (…) the positive step forward in Belarus, more important, not less important.
Igor Kuley, Belsat: What do you think about the Belarusian struggle for Ukrainian freedom, the Kalinouski regiment and (…)?
Ambassador Brzezinski: We support those fighting for the freedom and independence of Ukraine. The US government provides this support itself. We stand with the courageous people of Ukraine who risk their lives and their families every day to try to throw out the Russian occupiers. I believe that in 100 years the people of Ukraine will remember those who were their freedom fighters. (…)
Igor Kuley, Belsat: Mr. Ambassador, the establishment of a National Liberation Movement is being discussed among the democratic forces. There is talk of creating a force that can liberate Belarus, maybe even a military force. And the critics of this idea say that it would never be recognized by any country, any allied country.
Ambassador Brzezinski: (…) The United States supports the movement to promote democracy, freedom and human rights in Belarus in a way that promotes progress as something the people of Belarus deserve. And we will continue to do so. And I feel like the people of Belarus have become so great in the sense that they have taken to the streets, they have peacefully protested for the replacement of an authoritarian government with truly freely elected and fairly elected representatives of their people. Before I became ambassador to Poland, I worked in the private sector. And I’ve done a lot of television in America as far as Belarus is concerned. And I would repeat three words over and over when doing these interviews. “I support Sviatlana.” And that is something that the US government has made clear that we support and will continue to support Sviatlana and all democracy activists in Belarus. You are the epitome of bravery. They are the people we know as heroes. You deserve our support. And they will go down in the history of their country as people who risked everything for something much bigger than themselves – and that is the liberty and individual and personal liberty of their people. That’s a great statement of what people are doing in Belarus today.
Igor Kuley, Belsat: Perhaps my last question: we hear many voices, and they come from the United States and the countries of the European Union, that Ukraine must make concessions to Russia and cede part of its territory to Russia in order to end this war break up. Is it possible that the United States will one day give this up? You will get tired of this Ukrainian war with Russia and, by the way, recognize Ukraine and Belarus as part of the Russian world? And will say, ‘Okay, we’re pulling out of this area. It’s up to you what you do here.”
Ambassador Brzezinski: Well, Igor, I couldn’t be clearer about what I’m about to say. The United States is supporting the people of Ukraine in throwing out their Russian occupiers in a sustainable and long-term way. We stand by the people of Ukraine to provide them with what they need in their fight against the Russian military that has occupied their country. Supporting the Ukrainian people in the fight against this occupier is an absolute must for the US government. It’s something permanent, and it’s not just talk. Look at the legislation coming out of Congress, in the form of billions and billions of dollars, to give the people of Ukraine the support they need. The important thing is that the people of Ukraine win. We had (…) a debate at the beginning of this conflict, when Putin expected to literally and figuratively convince the people of Ukraine that they were capable of waging a total and complete fight against an army that tragically equipped and able to do terrible things – we have seen them do their terrible things – but the people of Ukraine have not been defeated. It’s so impressive for the people of the United States. And we will stand by the people of Ukraine and the people of this region in the long term.
From the US Poland Mission | August 10, 2022 | Topics: ambassadors, events, news
